What's wrong with a wall? Israel is building a wall of separation, a barrier that will help prevent cowardly terrorists murderers from continually slipping over the borders to slaughter Israeli civilians. The International Court of Justice thinks this is a crime? It "inconveniences" Palestinian people?

Sharon's Wall in Israel
Well, never mind then about the Israelis who are 'inconvenienced' by being blown to bits, or having family blown to bits. This is an egregious expression on the part of the ICJ, and discredits them before the sensible world. But it unfortunately resembles the American governments soft position on illegal Mexicans crossing America's southern borders, and also on the whole idea of deporting Arab Muslims from America. We mustn't "inconvenience" anyone. Terrorists must be allowed therefore their free hits. We'll just have to take it on the chin, because we'd rather inconvenience the whole nation, the whole world, rather than inconvenience the race and religion of the terrorists. We'd rather the terrorists have their chance at the whole country, rather than inconvenience a few million Arabs in America by deporting them all.
It seems to me Sharon is quite logical on his own situation in Israel. He has a nation to protect, which is under daily threat of indiscriminate slaughter.
But there is another parallel between the border issue in Israel and the border issue in America. Mexcans are here in America because no one else will plant the onions. (Not at 35 cents an hour.) Americans hire them. Israeli's hire Palestinian workers--for very much the same reasons. If Mrs. Rubenstein would work her own garden, clean her own floors, I think there would be less border issues in Israel. If Mr. Jones could find some American workers, who wouldn't demand $15 dollars an hour, paid vacation, and health insurance, we wouldn't have the Mexican immigration problem.
Interestingly, in 1939, the Germans in Poland built a wall around the Jewish ghetto in Warsaw. But today, Israel builds a wall around itself. Walls can be very telling. The American poet Robert Frost once wrote, "Good fences make good neighbors." Maybe its true. A wall of defense is certainly not the same as a wall of alienation, prejudice, or bigotry. China once built a great wall of defense. Not a lot of criticism about that.
But every wall has two sides, psychologically. Sharon said, '"They [the ICJ] know full well that the completion of the fence will make it very difficult for them [terrorists] to continue perpetrating acts of murder." That's the explanation for this fence. Any other "side" of it is of secondary importance. Simple as that. Anyone feeling offended or insulted is a very primitive egotist, instinctively manipulating his cause through feigned pleas for justice. Such connivance represence the rodent mind of the world. Sometimes the "other side" just isn't worth hearing.
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Posted by: his tooth decay on May 13, 2007 06:31 PMSmarter than everyone else? Well, they do, on average, test higher on IQ tests than Europeans, just as Europeans test higher than Blacks.
There are a number of explanations for Jewish domination of the West. I'd say that Dr. Kevin McDonald's works sum up the root causes rather nicely.
Of course, if you have to stoop to using the Bible as justification for the Israeli genocide of Palestine's native peoples, then you've clearly already bought into the "Chosen People" myth.
It's this brand of Christian Zionism that is leading my people down the primrose path to self-destruction.
I've read the articles in which you call for White people to be proud of who we are; however, what you seem not to comprehend is that by promoting Jewish interests, you are directly working to prevent that.
The Jewish-owned media works night and day to make sure that White peoples are deprived of any knowledge of and respect for our own cultures. They actively promote the advancement of other races at the expense of Whites in the lands we have built and even in our tribal homelands.
I'm not suggesting some form of a vast conspiracy. I'm just saying that while Jews are very aware and protective of their own ethnicity, many of them (particularly the politically astute and influential among them) are also aware that it is in their interests to deprive us of the awareness of our own, lest we take note of the many differences between them and ourselves, and come to understand that what is in their interest is not in ours.
Again, I understand that you're employed by Jews and are therefore simply looking out for your own interests. Of course, looking out for #1 and neglecting the common good is among the prime causes of American social decay.
If you want to serve America's interests, then you'll have to stop serving Israel's. The two are not compatible. There's a reason that men like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson vehemently warned against foreign entanglements.
We are now seeing the results of the fact that we have neglected their advice. While we fight for Israel in the Middle East, our ancestors look south toward the invasion from across the Rio Grande and curse us from their graves.
AM, I don't think you've researched the "Palestinian" question carefully. There is no "Palestinian" nationality. There are no "Palestinians." By all those same definitions, Jews are "Palestinians." The current Arab group there is so mixed with Syrian and Jordanian, that there is no point in calling them a "Palestinian" nationality. This is fraud, on all fronts, just to prick at Israel.
Furthermore, the Arabs living in Palestine before 1948 were only relative new-comers to the area, and were simply herdsman. They controlled only goats. They fought no one, won nothing, nor established themselves in the land. It was all by proxy. There is absolutely no comparison whatever between Indians and Palestinians. This is grave insult to Indians, as I see it, particularly the warrior plains tribes.
Furthermore, the original Hebrew "conquest" was at the hand of God, as it also says in the Qur'an, by the way. It was expulsion of grossly immoral (no doubt diseased) tribes, whom the Lord had given an additional 400 years of probation.
Of course, if you don't believe the Bible, then none of this makes sense at all. You're left with the practicalities of the present understanding of politics. Anything can happen, then. But you are then left with the mystery of how such a small people, a tiny minorty, the Jews, could have such influence in the world.
What do you want to say? Are they smarter than everyone else? You have to say something. The facts demand some explanation.
Posted by: David Yeagley on July 17, 2004 10:29 PMThe problem is that the same Zionists who control the American mass media force racial integration upon White Americans while tacitly supporting Israel's own apartheid wall.
They slander American racial separatists, calling us "haters" and "nazis." They rallied behind General Wesley Kanne Clark when he initiated the brutal destruction of Serbia's infrastructure on the grounds that "monoethnic nation-states are a nineteenth century idea" that must not be tolerated. They exert endless effort attempting to convince us, in the face of nothing but contradictory evidence, that "diversity is strength."
At the same time, they give their inflexible support to a state that is actively committing genocide against the people who lived their before them, much as my people shamefully brought about the genocide of yours, Dr. Yeagley.
I would assert that if you were being true to your Amerindian roots, you'd identify far more closely with the Palestinians, who were native to the land even before the original Hebrew conquest of Palestine documented in the Old Testament, rather than the invading, genocidal, religious-extremist, self-appointed "Chosen People" who are ruthlessly attempting to subjugate them.
Then again, if you weren't a judeophile, you probably wouldn't have the luxury of seeing your column appear in the Jew Horowitz's Frontpage magazine, etc. etc. etc.
I guess you realize which side of your bread receives the butter, but I still think it's sad that you're sleeping with the enemy -- yours and mine. White, Indian, Negro -- we're all just "goyim" to "God's Chosen People (tm)."
Posted by: AmericanMale on July 15, 2004 04:23 PMThank you again Yeagley for the discourse. I enjoy and learn much from it.
America no longer attempts assimilation or termination of the tribes, though both policies were in effect for a noticeable duration of time. To this day there are people out there who foster Christianity over the traditional religions. I do not view this as right or wrong, but it is assimilation. To each their own as far as religion goes.
I don't think that the lack of application of personal standards to social standards coicides well with the biggest anti-Clinton arguement. He represents the United States and the Presidency. He didn't act in a way that coincides with personal values. Clinton is now a bad guy. I would say that he should be evaluated as a President and as a person separately or not at all. Hold the President to the standard that you hold yourself to, then hold the nation to the same standard. After all he is the Head of State.
From the culture that I was raised in personal identity is less important than the whole. Maybe that is why I see the situation as individualized, if that makes sense.
I understand how hypocritical it sounds to attempt to evaluate America by its own standard when I don't pretend to posses the same standard. Though I try to see the spirit of this country apart from the atrocities committed by its citizens. The essence of this country (though this could be my personal myth of this nation), is freedom and justice for all. Cliche and romantic I know. This country is not living up to that standard. I see my personal standards as akin to that initial notion, one of the reasons that I joined the Corps actually. The US seems more shallow, greedy and imperial. Too far away from the soul of the Declaration of Independance and later the Constitution. Both liberals and conservatives are party to such a decline.
I would ask how to demonstrate strength in order to earn rights. Who decides who gets rights? What kind of strength is necessary and how much? I submit again the Heinlein thesis that only those who serve in the military can hold office or vote. That is a demonstration of strength in my opinion. Then again there were men I served with that I wouldn't trust with bottle rockets, who couldn't balance a checkbook or make sound decisions for themselves.
Though there is truth in the argument that there can be no freedom without security. There are few values that you can maintain without security. It is an interesting balancing act to attempt to create and sustain a culture that has such complicated relatively high moral standards, while simultaneously killing maiming and destroying to keep it.
I am not so sure that it applies Yeagley. You can have the wrong Right as well, and reinforce it with might. Those who object to the United States' policies would state that is what is status quo. Sandcreek is an example of the wrong Right, of Manifest Destiny. Which, if I remember correctly, was a Christian doctrine used to justify many unspeakable acts visited upon NDN's. But it created the United States of America. Perhaps it is in the eye of who is observing right and wrong.
Posted by: Speelyi on July 15, 2004 04:14 PMah, but this is where America stands out from the crowd. They really didn't make us assimialte, not wholly. America has been remarkably lenient toward a former "enemy." maybe it was because they knew they were kind of "wrong" in what they were doing, but, in any case, they refrained from totally annihilation, or from compete and totally forced assimilation. This is the fact, is it not?
I can't put the personal morality on the social/communal scale. The standards and expectations on the individual are always much higher. (That would be Reinhol Niebuhr's "Moral Man, Immoral Society")
Yet, according to Hebrew scripture, God does hold nations responsible for their actions, and rewards them respectively. There is a "personal" element to the national identity of a nation.
I never say might makes right. I say might decides what's going to be considered right, in the society might sets up. Big moral difference.
But, as an Indian, if you have different ideas of right and wrong, how can you hold America to its own standards, if you yourself don't hold those standards? Hypothetical question, of course.
Do you impose your right and wrong on America? I say it's America's might that can afford to allow us to do that. It's called human rights, or citizens rights.
I don't believe in such rights. They are granted only through strength. When America gives citizens rights out like candy, I say the whole show is rotten, through and through. Might will go out the window too, in due time.
You can't have the right Right, unless you have the strength to enforce it.
Posted by: David Yeagley on July 15, 2004 03:31 PMYeagley,
By that paradigm there is no real morality other than might makes right? I am a man physically capable of violence, as I have been trained to visit it upon people. Does that mean that I should do so in order to appropriate property. I know that this is taking this concept into a scale reduction, but it doesn't seem to work. There is strength of conviction that terrorists carry with them. Does that make their actions right?
I just can't buy social Darwinism. This is one of the devices that is used to question tribal sovereignty and maintenance of traditional culture. "You were conquered now assimilate".
Posted by: Speelyi on July 15, 2004 01:25 PMLand claims have less to do with justice than with strength. If you're not strong enough to hold what's yours, it will be taken from you. That is the law of the land, so to speak. Land has changed hands continually over millenia. It is the same story. He who has strength, has the land.
He who has strength also decides what's going to be considered right and wrong.
Therefore, have strength! And pray that whoever has it also has the best concepts of right and wrong.
Posted by: David Yeagley on July 15, 2004 12:42 PMI will not assume that I know what is happening between the Israeli and palistinian people, it must be something important if it has been fought over for so long. What I disagree with is the favoritism that America shows to one side. Both sides are losing innocents, one is not greater then the other in this aspect. However, I believe that this civil war did get worse when we started supporting one side. An agreement needs to be reached where one does not benefit over the other. I also do not believe Israel holds title over the land just because of history. I do believe that is what part of the fight is about. I feel for everyone that has lost a loved one due to war.
Posted by: snoop on July 15, 2004 10:56 AMSub-Gremlin,
It is neither sloppy thinking nor was it disingenuous. I wasn't referring to the 1948 war, nor did I infer that they started the war. What I was saying is that during (I believe it was) the 6 day war they occupied territory, to include Jerusalem that they are unwilling to release. That territory would be considered occupied by the Palestinians, who believe that they have claim to that land.
I simply offer a separate look at an issue that seems to be dominated by groupthink. Now that terrorism is the buzzword, there are dramatic rationalizations using that word. I do not mean to demean the terror attacks that happen in Israel nor to I mean to imply that they do not happen. What I am attempting to communicate is that it was important to an International Court that the wall was removed. It was important to the Israeli Supreme Court that the wall was moved. Why isn't there any discussion about the merits of tearing down the wall. There will be no winning of hearts and minds nor diplomacy with such a physical barrier in place.
If your point is that the Palestinian people (this would be a pretty grand generalization seeing as terrorists make up a small portion of any population) are not willing to negotiate in any way shape or form and would prefer violent terror attacks, then we can analyze that.
First of all, that sort of nihilistic thinking instantaneously presents a barrier to negotiation and cements courses of action that can only end in violence. Seeing as you have chosen not to dissect any of the previous arguments on the topic of solving terror with force of arms, I could state that you are avoiding them or agree with them. I believe that would be a mischaracterization though.
Secondly, the pejoritive look at terrorists shouldn't be applied to a populace, which you have done under the presumption presented. At the point where you assign a negative value to a race of people you have ceased to be rational in my opinion. I could proclaim as a NDN that all white christians are land greedy shallow people who are imperialistic murderers by nature as shown by the history of the United States. I would be very wrong, and I see this sort of ad hominem attack being applied to Palestinians, under the paradigm presented.
Thirdly, you are correct in the fact that there is not a recognized Palestinian people. Because they don't have a state. There were people there before the state of Israel was created in the modern era. The Middle East as we know it was drawn by Europeans over gin and tonic (for the most part). So is there really an Iraqi people? Sovereignty is commonly defined as plenary power within the boundaries of a territory. Israel has the ability to exercise sovereignty, though the Palestinians don't because they don't have a state and hence no real territory.
There can be an argument made that Palestinians are not a recognized race as well, or a people as a group. They, I think would beg to differ. As far as Arabs not permitting a Palestine, I don't think they would support a Palestine under the original concept, (as it would contain parts of recognized nations). I don't think that they would disagree with the pre-1967 borders.
I don't support the Palestinians as much as I would like to see a legitimate discussion upon the equity with which the US treats the situation. The US supports Israel. Why? For a foothold in the region policy-wise? Political pressure domestically? They buy our munitions? Why don't we support the Palestinian cause? Don't they deserve democracy as much as the Iraqis or the Afghanis? Please do not respond with the fact that they use terror tactics and therefore cannot be supported. The IRA utilized terror tactics and it was popularly supported by American citizens who supplied funds the movement, while the US turned a blind eye. What is the difference? There is just too little critical discourse upon the topic. There is little attempt to find a solution then to attack Palestine, or Israel. I believe that that is sloppy logic.
Posted by: Speelyi on July 14, 2004 06:33 PMSpeelyi wrote,
"Remember that Israel was once a part of a territory known as Palestine, which was to be partitioned into 3 pieces, a Jewish, an Arab and an International area. Israel took land in warfare and occupied it. They are now being attacked by people who oppose that. The attacks do not come by uniformed people, but it is their means to resist the occupation. As the United States is learning, people do not like being occupied. President Truman was the impetus for the United States recognizing Israel (if I remember correctly), and the United Nations delegation almost resigned due to it. The territory that is Israel was to be shared with the people that are now referred to as Palestinians."
This is either sloppy thinking or simply disingenuous. You make it sound as if the Jews had started the war in 1948 in order to grab more land than was due to them.
Not so, Speelyi. The Jews, though unhappy about the crazy quilt of territories apportioned to them by the UN, accepted Resolution 181. They were finally going to have their own country. Therefore they did not start a war.
The Arabs, on the other hand, wanted no Israel at all, no matter how small or how haphazardly drawn on the map. They did start a war: the first of five conventional wars fought between Israel and the Arabs. At the time, few would have bet on the Jews to prevail, vastly outnumbered as they were by armies from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria. Their equipment was inferior, too. The secretary general of the Arab League proclaimed this as a war of extermination that would go down in history as an equivalent to the Mongol Invasion and the Crusades [yes, the Crusades!]
Against all odds, and without help from anyone (certainly not the U.S.), the Jews hung on and beat back the onslaught. Not only that, the armistice line in 1949 (the so-called "Green Line") saw the Israelis end up with more -- and better-connected -- land than under the 1947 UN resolution.
Speelyi, you really should study the history a little more before making pronouncements. It seems that you start out with an outline and then paint in the dots.
Understandably your sympathies lie with the Palestinians (the "underdogs"), and that colors your outlook. But you are incorrect to state that they are fighting "occupation": their goal is to destroy Israel and reclaim the land for the "Arab nation" (there is no such thing as a "Palestinian people": should the Arabs destroy Israel, they will never permit an independent "Palestinian" nation-state on that territory.)
Posted by: sub-gremlin on July 14, 2004 01:08 PMNiteShift,
While I understand your point, I see much more that could be taught about NDN's in American History. Though there may be more sympathy and more accurate portrayals, I have yet to see any mention of Sandcreek, or the Navajo march. Why isn't there descriptions of those massacres next to the Little Big Horn?
Nora,
Not every country in the world puts up a wall to segregate their population. To compare a physical wall to a security measures (which is why I critique the semantics of wall v. barrier) is a false dichotomy. Yes there are security checkpoints in many countries when you cross a border into another country. I don't have security check when I cross from one state to another, (unless I am on a plane).
Remember that Israel was once a part of a territory known as Palestine, which was to be partitioned into 3 pieces, a Jewish, an Arab and an International area. Israel took land in warfare and occupied it. They are now being attacked by people who oppose that. The attacks do not come by uniformed people, but it is their means to resist the occupation. As the United States is learning, people do not like being occupied. President Truman was the impetus for the United States recognizing Israel (if I remember correctly), and the United Nations delegation almost resigned due to it. The territory that is Israel was to be shared with the people that are now referred to as Palestinians.
Fact 1/2)Of course not they are sovereign territories as you have pointed out. Israel is supposed to share the space that they have. They may have taken land in conquest, but they will have to suffer the repercussions if they want to keep it. If a portion of the United States was taken in 1967, expect American's to keep fighting for it. Why do we not expect the same of the Palestinians?
Fact 3) There may have been no attacks since it went up in Israel. But expect further attacks on Israelis afar, expect further innovation. Terrorists are not deterred by death, what makes you think a wall will keep them from their war?
Fact 4)The Israeli High Court weighed in favor of moving the barrier due to their own review. Cost/benefit analysis goes into any policy decision. The Court ruled that it should be closer to the border of Israel due to the fact that it was more land grab than security to have that much territory.
Fact 5)My understanding of the Palestinian request is that they want a Palestinian state that includes half of Jerusalem. This is where talks almost always break down between the two entities. The reason why Palestinians do not want the wall is because they feel as though Israel is stealing their land. As the Jews should know, you can't have a state without land.
I do not support terrorism. I simply attempt to understand it. Terror cannot be beaten with rockets or bombs. The only governments that can rid themselves of terror are repressive ones. Israel can attempt to keep their borders safe, but terror is only limited by the imagination. What would I do? I can't give you a step-by-step policy, but I can tell you that there needs to be more negotiation, attempts at understanding, a serious look at the points of negotiations that have been ongoing since violence began.
American support for the Israeli wall is only going to yield further attacks against soldiers, civilians abroad, and against domestic targets. The foreign fighters are going to grow in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Russians found out what happens when they fought for 10 years in Afghanistan against people who opposed them due to their occupation. The British found that out before them, in Afghanistan. Americans will learn that lesson in Afghanistan or Iraq unless policies are changed.
Posted by: Speelyi on July 14, 2004 12:14 PMAN IMAGINARY OR NOT SO IMAGINARY SCENARIO
An imaginary individual decides to visit his imaginary relatives. He collects his wife and imaginary children, prepares a suitcase, and sets out on his way. In order to get to his relatives, he has to pass through a barrier. There is a long line of people waiting to pass through this barrier, and our imaginary friend is waiting patiently with his family. At the end of the line, tough-looking people in uniforms check with a frustrating slowness every single person passing through the barrier. Another person in uniform gives our imaginary friend a form, in a language he doesnt understand, and asks him to fill in the details. On this form, our imaginary friend is required to explain who he is, who his companions are, his destination, and his intentions.
Next to the long line where our imaginary friend is waiting patiently there is another line, in which other people pass through the barrier quickly and without any checks, as if to emphasize the injustice of this imaginary world.
When our imaginary friend reaches the checkpoint, he is required by another official in uniform to open his bag. His belongings are scattered and thoroughly checked. He is asked to remove certain elements of his clothing, and may even be asked to spread his arms. From this checkpoint our imaginary friend is sent to another official in uniform, who glances at the form he has filled in, and repeats the same questions Who are you? Where are you going? Who are you traveling with? What are you going to do when you get there? etc.
At this stage, when our imaginary friend feels that he and his family have experienced the very depths of injustice and humiliation, he is permitted to pass.
This unimaginary scenario takes place every minute in every sea- and airport of every country in the world and nobody complains. It is quite obvious that every sovereign country in the world has the right to check the people wishing to enter its borders. With regard to every country in the world, this is called passport control. With regard to Israel it has come to be called barriers, walls, fences, etc.
Every country in the world surrounds itself with a wall, and with control checkpoints. In every such checkpoint you will find people in uniforms, and in many places you will also find soldiers with firearms. Every country in the world has a wall. The physical shape of the wall is a function of the purpose of the wall. When the purpose of the wall is to check tourists and innocent bystanders, the physical shape of the wall will be a modern, comfortable, air-conditioned terminal. When the purpose of the wall is to prevent the free passage of terrorists bearing arms and explosives, whose intention is the murder of innocent citizens without discrimination, the physical shape of the wall is concrete, with watchtowers, etc.
No country in the world is faced with the relentless, intensive, and mind-numbing horror of the effects of terrorism to the degree that Israel is. Yet Israel is the only country in the world that has been told by an international court of justice that it does not have the right to close its borders and check people wishing to come in or pass through.
If the basic right of the Palestinian Arabs to move freely from place to place is being exploited by the Palestinian terror organizations to implement terrorist activities inside Israel, then Israels natural basic right as a sovereign nation is to prevent the entry of such individuals even at the cost of the construction of a wall/fence/barrier.
FACT: No international court of justice prosecuted Jordan for violating the basic human rights of the Palestinian Arabs by not allowing them free passage into Jordan despite the fact that until 1967, all the West Bank territories were under Jordanian rule.
FACT: No international court of justice prosecuted Egypt for violating the basic human rights of the Palestinian Arabs living in Gaza by not allowing them free passage into Egypt despite the fact that until 1967, the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian rule.
FACT: It is a fact, however, that virtually no suicide bombers have gained entry into Israel in areas where the wall/barrier has been constructed.
FACT: The Israeli High Court of Justice ruled that certain parts of the wall should be re-routed, but also that security considerations should be balanced against the needs of local residents.
FACT: The Palestinian Authority does not want the wall, because the wall reflects the concept of two countries for two people. The PA wants one binational state in which, based on demographic statistics, the Jews will very quickly become a minority, leading to the inevitable end of the State of Israel.
From: http://www.conceptwizard.com/info.html
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NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only.
"... I want the truth to be told about the atrocities committed by the American government. The lies that were perpetuated. The attempted eradication of many ways of life. I want the children of this nation to know what the facts are."
Well in my humble opinion, the truth from the point of view of Natives is what is taught to young people today, and for the last 30 years or so. Ask the average white student what he thinks about U.S. relations with Indians, and if he has been paying attention in school he will tell you that the U.S. lied, broke the treaties, and stole the land. So it would seem to me that what you desire, that young people learn the truth, is what we have, and incidentally, is a major reason for the 'White Guilt' that Shane spoke of. My only complaint is that in this view of America, Indians tend to be portrayed as wholly blameless, and whites as always the villains, which was not always the case. There can be more than one truth, as you know. At any rate, history as taught in the schools casts Natives in a much more favorable light than whites or their government, and so it would seem that you ought to take some satisfaction from that.
I don't really desire guilt. I want the truth to be told about the atrocities committed by the American government. The lies that were perpetuated. The attempted eradication of many ways of life. I want the children of this nation to know what the facts are. I don't desire guilt only acceptance and education. I believe that proper education would yield greater mutual benefits to all involved than guilt.
Yes, the Huns and Mongols, as well as the Zulu I believe are all non-European models of imperialism. There are more I am sure. My point rests on the NDN's and this land.
As a sidenote, to dispute my earlier claims on the Wall. Israel is re-routing part of the wall. It isn't moving what is currently there though.
The Irish and the troubles continue as well. There was a flare up of violence surrounding the Orange Parade. It happens pretty much every year, but it is pertinent to previous statements that I had made.
Posted by: Speelyi on July 13, 2004 02:12 PMSp,
Wouldn't Attila break the Euro-mold?
Most whites I know have a deep respect and sadness for American Indians. We don't feel guilty, because we did not ask to be born in this country or in our skin tints.
I can assure you though, that white guilt is an asset - at least in my opinion - to the future Indian causes. Guilt is what causes people to go the extra mile to right past wrongs (politicians excluded - they all suck) Ours is a connected past that has bearing on the future. Vast amounts of people coming to America these days have no history with the Indian and I wonder if they even care.
Time shall tell.
Posted by: shane on July 13, 2004 01:56 PMWell according to some there were up to 8million NDN's in what is now called America. The 1million figure is what was estimated at the advent of anthropology, some amongst the native community believe that the number was intentionally low to relieve European guilt.
As far as conflict amongst pre-European invasion NDN's. Yes there was conflict. When looked at in scale it pales in comparison to European conflict. There were bloody wars between tribes that ended in some tribes extermination, for the most part this was in the Old Northwest, the Great Lakes region, from what I have read. Other tribes counted coup, rather than kill a man. Remember that it was not the NDN that invaded Europe, why? Why wasn't there advanced weapons technology, fortifications, siege weapons, firearms, etc? Because NDN's may love to engage in physical contests but they don't always have to be lethal. As well non-sedentary tribes (not all tribes were nomadic), did not fortify because they had to move around, no forts equal no siege equipment. Firearms never had to be invented due to a lack of need. The weapons at hand were lethal enough. There was no need for massive military campaigns that would take years. The plains tribes would raid for a summer but usually no longer. There were slave raids as well, but there was never the massive casualties that are seen in European wars.
Diplomacy is what led to higher body counts in my opinion. As ties become formalized there is need to gather your own allies. The armies become larger and now there is more impetus to stay in the fight because the casualty percentage stays the same but the number of warriors grows. There were alliances though by region, by kin, by language and religion. There were disputes for the same reasons. But the fulcrum is that there wasn't overwhelming death as post European invasion was noted for.
As an example: a band consists of 50 people, avg 50% for men, 50% of that are too old or young....12-13 warriors that raid another band with 12-13 warriors. If there are say, 10 bands allied together that is 500 people and over a hundred warriors. If you lost 10% of your warriors at the band level you lost one warrior. If you lose 10% at the tribal level you just lost about 12 warriors or the equivalent manpower of an entire band. This of course escalates as tribes band together into nations. The terminology varies with who you talk to, but this is what I am familiar with.
Now diplomacy post European invasion gets complicated and convoluted due to competing powers, who want to ally with the nations. If you read over the initial treaties the US Gov. spoke to the tribes as equals. They later broke their word when they got the upper hand.
So yes, the more people you add the more difficult it becomes. But the caveat is that there still would not be global conflicts brought forth by NDN's. The people who populated this land did so without having a massive explosion in population that required them to become imperialistic and span continents. To chart the parallel evolution of North America and Europe you would see them analogous at the start and Europe grows more and more interested in land, title, possession. In the land that would become the United States there is some of that to be sure, but not to the scale that fosters invasion at Normandy in 1200.
Posted by: Speelyi on July 13, 2004 01:38 PMcorrection...
"It would appear that diplomatic resolutions to conflict predated the Euro's and failed miserably, and can only get worse by further increases in numbers - regardless of origin"
Posted by: Shane on July 13, 2004 01:10 PMSpeelyi,
One aspect of America - and human behavior in general - that fascinates me is Pre-European-Immigration America.
I'm no expert in NDN affairs, so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the native American Indians war with eachother over land, resources, etc, even thought there were what only 1 million NDN's and clearly an ample amount of space, land, animals, etc?
It would appear that diplomatic resolutions to conflict predated the Euro's, and can only get amplified by further increases in numbers - regardless of origin.
Time will decide.
Posted by: Shane on July 13, 2004 01:08 PMI understand your point much better Shane, and the answer shamefully is yes. There is a limit to the number of people that I could live with due to space. I don't think that the United States of America is running out of space though. We just like to live in the suburbs, and have huge ranches. Which we are free to have. I just wonder why we begrudge others the same opportunity that we have.
Is there a limit to the number of people this country can provide for? Yes. Should we know what it is? Yes. Have we reached it? No. As a matter of fact American's aren't replacing themselves birthrate wise.
As far as migration to another planet, perhaps in the distant future. Until then there needs to be a serious accounting for the resources of this planet. There needs to be a look at why we do the things we do and what the repercussions of our actions are, not just the financial benefits.
In the States: Why do we put our servicemen on the line, and is it worth it? What are our core values and why? How do our values correlate with our goals? These questions will illustrate what our country is about. Then maybe we can work toward that. It just looks as though we have literally sold out the next generation to mass advertising and materialism. Kids with cells, ads at school, hours of tv, obesity etc.
Posted by: Speelyi on July 13, 2004 12:33 PMSpeelyi,
Let me rephrase the question - how many family member live with you, and would their be a point where - even for family - you had one too many?
Race, history, politics aside, is their a limit and should we know what that limit is, so that we can properly plan for it?
Perhaps one day, we all will be forced to find another planet to imigrate to. We can fight all over again for the spoils.
Posted by: Shane on July 13, 2004 12:21 PMShane,
Thank you for the information. It was very interesting and educational. I would only ask that the same poem that mentions Old World problems, be analyzed from the perspective of the NDN's.
If the gates had been guarded against the European invasion's initial incursions then history would have been decidedly different. If we could have held (huge if) then we could have averted the "stretching of the tiger's claws" that is mentioned, namely the Revolutionary War, Spanish-American War, the French and Indian War, the War of 1812, both World Wars, the Korean Conflict, Vietnam. For the wars mentioned are all attached to the Old World in one way or another.
The immense wealth that was taken from these shores would not have materialized and there would have been greater wars on the European continent over wealth, and due to overpopulation. There would have more wars in Asia proper, the Mediterranean and in the Middle East.
Keep in mind that this nation was built on the blood of NDN's on the backs of slaves and populated by immigrants. The question that I would pose is what is the threshold on immigration? At what point in time should we select for the last mass immigration? Yeagley you and I have had this discussion, and we hold natives as separate but I would pose these questions to others as well.
Why oppose immigration? The labor demand leads to supply, the supply is great enough that the market exchanges in perceived equals, this is base capitalism. Others seek "freedom", that they can't find in their own land. Telling them to overthrow their government is difficult when at times we in the United States have supported such regimes. I cannot begrudge one who wants to walk the same land that I do, without begrudging the sons of the equivalent of that man. There are too many white people that I like to be that angry. My homelands are guaranteed by treaty, and I can understand restricting access to a land that has never been controlled by an immigrant. But for the kin of an immigrant to deny an immigrant access due, sounds a hypocritical.
Posted by: Speelyi on July 13, 2004 12:12 PMNo they have not used WMD's, but neither has Korea and they were next on the "Axis of Evil" list. The only country to tactically use a nuclear weapon is the United States, mind you. As well, I don't believe that the willingness of Israel to utilize nuclear weapons is questionable in the least. Up until recently they "strategically ambiguous" about their nuclear capabilities, (I believe that is the term they use). Meaning that they could neither confirm nor deny that they possessed them. With the immense portion of the foreign aid budget that Israel receives (as well they have a good economy), where do you think Israel received the technology to build WMD? Though there may have been scientists sympathetic to Israel's cause, the funding, at best in part, was by American taxpayers.
The threat of WMD is not as important as the possession of WMD in my mind. There are just as many possible security fissures that could leak nuclear materials in Israel as anywhere else. Just because they don't get along with Muslims does not mean that the material couldn't travel among different routes. This is all conjecture though along the conceptual path of potential threats, which is why we target Korea and Iran. To reiterate, it is more important that all nuclear weapon stockpiles are scaled down or removed. After all why would you own one, if not to use it or threaten to use it.
Netanyahu has an interesting article in the NYT today. He has made some significant points, though they all balance on a cultural bias that is plain if looked for and ignores a critical piece of information. He has it broken down into pieces, so I will deconstruct in the same manner.
1)The fence is not on Palestinian land, it is on disputed land, by Netanyahu's claim. My first question to pose is then why is Israel building on it? If any possession is in dispute, then neither side should be able to possess it partially or otherwise, much less build a wall around it. If negotiated peace did not work our in favor of Israel, would they ignore that as they did the UN backed court?
2)The next claim is that the fence can be moved, this is supported with evidence of previous movements. The fence is more like a wall, the semantics are used to make it seem less ominous or permanent. As well, just because it can be doesn't mean it will be, which is supported by the fact that it isn't being moved as we speak.
The last passing point about protecting Israelis ignores that the Israelis are currently in occupied territory. There aren't many Americans camped out in the Korean DMZ, at Guantanamo Bay, or making summer homes in Baghdad because there is an understanding of the danger of civilians living there. Remember that even by Netanyahu's own admission that the territory is in dispute.
3)Fences are useful against terrorism. This, I do not have the data to dispute. But it does seem that under the siege mentality that Israel holds it will end up a walled city. The mentality that is forwarded here is reactionary as well.
The cultural bias is plain to see and easy to understand. Under the circumstances it is easy to sympathize with the situation. Understanding does not make it right though. That is the bias. The point missed is where the terror comes from. Benny is blatantly ignoring the reason that terror is taking place in order to deal with the repercussions. This is like a prognosis without a diagnosis.
"Know thy enemy". While I forget where this quote comes from, it is pertinent to any discussion on conflict. The fact that we only target those countries that possess WMD and don't agree with is further fodder terror recruitment. The support for the wall, more fuel for the fire. I do not oppose the nation of Israel or its existence, I simply cannot understand why they would not move back within their borders and erect a wall in order to protect their people. Is it pride? Because that is what it appears to be. Appeasement shouldn't be a worry because a similar situation (though notedly not in holy land) happened in Ireland and it was defused by negotiation, not walls or bombs.
Posted by: Speelyi on July 13, 2004 11:24 AMSpeelyi,
Please refer to www.vdare.com for some education regarding the history of the Statue of Liberty, the poem and the plague. http://www.vdare.com/fulford/statue_of_immigration.htm Should be eye-opening for you.
Please answer this question: Can America handle immigration FOREVER? It's a simple question. How come people don't mind amendments to the Constitution to "adjust to the times" but immigration policy must remain set in stone?
FYI Speelyi, Israel has never used WMD's against anyone like Iraq did, nor have they threatened to use WMD's against another country as Iran, North Korea, and China have.
Posted by: NE on July 12, 2004 07:09 PMhttp://www.editorsoffice.de/ME_luft.htm
Posted by: Nora on July 12, 2004 12:43 PMI think that there are a few problems with the assertion that the fence is strictly for defensive purposes. The wall is being placed between Palestinian farmers and their fields. This makes it look like a land grab. The court has upheld that the wall in the West Bank is wrong. No one has said that Israel can't have a wall, just not a wall in occupied territory. Defense is a noble justification for such a fortification, but why does it have to be there and not on the "Green Line".
Israel also has nuclear weapons. They are not being investigated as other nations are. Why? Would they use them? When? How many do they have? What is the capacity? These are questions that I would like investigated. Not investigating them is further fodder for terrorist recruiters. "WMD only matters when it is non-Western countries" is what they will be spreading.
I see a world where there is only reaction, and counter-action. What is the root of the problem? Morals could be a potential answer, but whose morals? I seek secular answers because it is easier to conversate. I see greed, materialism, paranoia, power hunger, as chief among the reasons for the problems in the world. How to solve them? Well I don't rightly know. If I did I would be saving the world instead of posting. But I do think that the head of the path in the right direction is in attempting to understand their claim, if not attempting to empathize with it.
As far as the US putting up a wall, I would only state that the Statue of Liberty becomes a hollow symbol at that point. The plaque that is on Ellis Island should be melted down at that point and used as a fencepost. It just seems so hypocritical that huge waves of European immigrants can break on the shores of the US, but other poor, tired, dispossesed must wait in line.
Posted by: Speelyi on July 12, 2004 12:31 PMThanks for your usual insightful commentary. It seems that Israel is the only country that is not allowed to defend itself. Yossi Klein Halevi once observed that people only seem to like Jews when they're victims -- as soon as they assert their right to exist, people complain that they're too agressive, or worse, that they're oppressive.
Posted by: Tamara on July 12, 2004 09:39 AMOne of the most fundamental aspects of a nation is the power to determine its own citizens. Having taught ancient humanities courses many times, I am most convinced. When a nation loses the power to define itself, it loses its identity, and will be taken over by a stronger identity.
Today, ideology is pushing for the ascendency in the world. It basically means simply power. Money is behind it, of course.
But a strong, independence nation can still defend itself against a foreign ideology, only if the leaders are not bought off. I fear this is America's problem right now. Leaders chose paths for their own advantage, and not for the country's. We have traitors among us. Nice guys, some of them, but really weak men.
Posted by: David Yeagley on July 12, 2004 09:09 AMI like it. Where can WE get one?
Wouldn't THAT frost the UN, the EU, and every other org in the world that outta keep their nose out of a country's business of protecting their citizens?
Posted by: Bonfire7 on July 11, 2004 11:43 PM